Mon

20

Oct

2008

Non, Je Ne Regrette Rien: Obama's New Advisor Stands By His War Crimes
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Written by Chris Floyd   

Just to be clear, Barack Obama's brand-new foreign policy advisor, Colin Powell, wants you to know that he continues to support the decision to launch a war of aggression against Iraq in March 2003 -- an act that, according to principles established by the United States and its allies at Nuremberg in 1945, is a war crime punishable by death.

In fact, the only thing that Powell -- the wise and steady statesman, the "grown-up," the "moderate" -- can find to criticize in the conduct of the war he helped launch is the fact that it wasn't savage enough to begin with. We should have "surged" those sand monkeys from the git-go, he told CNN, as he aligned himself with the genocidal philosophy of noted moderate, grown-up legal philosopher Glenn "Gomer Says Hey" Reynolds, noted for his Augustinian endorsement of the "more rubble, less trouble" school of warcraft. From CNN, here are Powell's words from an exchange with reporters following his endorsement of Obama on Sunday:

I'm well aware of the role I played [in the Iraq war]. My role has been very, very straightforward. I wanted to avoid a war. The president agreed with me. We tried to do that. We couldn't get it through the U.N. and when the president made the decision, I supported that decision. And I've never blinked from that. I've never said I didn't support a decision to go to war.

Here is one outright lie right out of the gate -- a brazen, blazing, breathtaking lie: "We tried to do that [avoid the war]. We couldn't get it through the U.N." This is murderous bullshit of the highest order. Before the invasion, Bush and Powell claimed they were being forced to consider war because of Iraq's alleged non-compliance with past UN demands to destroy its WMD arsenal and programs. In late 2002, the UN duly authorized -- and Iraq accepted -- a vigorous program of inspections to verify compliance -- or discover non-compliance. This process was going on, successfully, with cooperation from the Iraqis, when George W. Bush ordered the UN inspectors out of the country, before they finished their work, so that he could launch a military invasion  -- which was now unnecessary by the very criteria that he and Powell had set out publicly.

But the kibosh on the UN process was necessary precisely to preclude the possibility that the inspectors would discover the truth: there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, there were no active programs to develop WMD in Iraq, and all such programs had been dismantled years before. (Both the Clinton and Bush Administrations had mountains of evidence to support this conclusion, and almost nothing to refute it. Yet both encouraged this blood libel to increase in hysterical virulence year after year.) For if the UN had been allowed to complete its work in 2003, then the Bush administration's main public casus belli, the threat of WMD, would have evaporated.

So let's be clear about the facts. Bush and Powell did indeed get from the UN a perfect mechanism for avoiding war with Iraq -- if that had been their goal. Instead, Bush destroyed this process in order to launch the invasion -- and Powell supported that position. He still supports it today. He's "never blinked from it."

Here's more from the moderate, honorable man, who is now completely rehabilitated in the eyes of "progressives" everywhere. (Indeed, even the Guardian on Monday proclaimed him a figure "of enduring moral authority."). Powell:

And the war looked great until the 9th of April, when the statue fell, everybody thought it was terrific. And it was terrific. The troops had done a great job. But then we failed to understand that the war really was not over, that a new phase of the war was beginning. And we weren't ready for it and we didn't respond to it well enough...

We now see that things are a lot better in Iraq. Maybe if we had put a surge in at the beginning, it would have been a lot better years ago.....

It wasn't wrong to kneecap the UN and unilaterally invade a country that hadn't attacked you and slaughter their people and destroy their society and drive more than four million of them from their homes; no. What was wrong, according to the moderate grown-up, was not laying even more shock and awe on the victims from the beginning. "Surge" through even more of their houses, terrifying children and rounding up the menfolk in even larger concentration camps; "surge" them with even more hired sectarian killers; "surge" all over their sorry hides with even more "smart bombs" and "drone missiles" and 500-pound blockbusters; "surge" them with "fraternity pranks" like the Cabinet-approved regimen of physical and psychological torture that leaked briefly into the light at Abu Ghraib. Yes, the original invasion just wasn't tough enough, didn't kill and dispossess nearly enough people -- not for a moderate, steady figure of enduring moral authority like Colin Powell. Shoulda surged 'em harder. Shoulda closed our hearts to pity, as that guy with the funny little moustache used to say. (Now there's someone who knew how to surge!)

Powell then goes on with the by-now ritual praise of General David Petraeus and the "surge": the campaign of ethnic cleansing, bribing and arming of sectarian extremists, death squads, local government torture, and "close air support" in civilian areas that -- along with the indispensable role played by Iran in supporting the allies it shares with Washington in the Iraqi government -- has "reduced" the violence in Iraq to a level that approximates the very worst civil conflicts since World War II.

Of course, Obama shares this view of the surge, having recently declared it "a wild success." And we have every indication that Obama shares this further sentiment that Powell voiced in his remarks:

And so, my concern was not my past or what happened in Iraq, but where we're going in the future. My sole concern was where are we going after January 20 of 2009, not what happened in 2003.

Well, if I had committed a hanging offense in 2003, I'd want to concentrate on 2009 too. And Obama seems to concur; he wants to "move on," to avoid any unseemly "partisan" wrangles over the past. The fact that a gang of militarist extremists -- including good old moderate Colin Powell -- murdered a million innocent people in a blatant war crime committed in America's name is not something that would be "fruitful to pursue," to quote Obama's own ringing phrase about his adamant opposition to any impeachment proceedings against the Bush Faction.

But beyond Powell's understandable anxiety to shift attention away from the period of his criminal complicity, look again at this passage from his statement. Meditate on it, let it sink in deeply:

...my concern was not my past or what happened in Iraq, but where we're going in the future.

His concern is not "what happened in Iraq." This encapsulates perfectly the view of the entire bipartisan foreign policy establishment. They simply could not care less about what happened in Iraq: a million dead, four million dispossessed, social, economic, cultural ruin, torture, murder, destruction, suffering: It not their "concern." They do not give a damn. The only thing that matters is "where we're going in the future;" i.e., how can we -- not "we the people" but "we" the elite, "we" the deciders, "we" the wielders of imperial power -- retain our dominance, our privilege and the proper deference that is our due from the lesser peoples of the world.

And now this man -- a willing and defiantly unrepentant conspirator in mass murder, a lifelong servant and abettor of the worst excesses of a rampant militarism that has destroyed the constitutional republic and replaced it with a hideous "commander-in-chief" state -- is now going to be whispering in the ear of our "transformational" president-to-be, providing the "foreign policy wisdom" that the young prince still lacks.

This is the "change" we have been promised, the "change" that millions of people -- in America and around the world -- have desperately longed for: a proven liar and mass murderer, standing in the inner circle of power again, alongside the "anti-war" "progressive" -- just as he stood shoulder to shoulder with George W. Bush...and just as he would even now be standing shoulder to shoulder with manic militarist John McCain, if he were 10 points up in the polls.

Mr. Eric Blair once described this nightmare scenario very well: "Four legs good, two legs better."

Comments (67)add comment

Linda J said:

1712
...
"His [Powell's] concern is not 'what happened in Iraq.'"

I just watched an Earth Institute webcast of Jeffrey Sachs, Nouriel Roubini and George Soros on saving the economy. As with Powell, Sachs and Soros' concern is not what happened to the economy. They didn't mention the massive transfer of wealth involved in the meltdown and the criminal behavior now rewarded by our taxpayer bailout of the crooks.

They only worry now that the regulation does not become to exuberant. Of course, Sachs invoked "the poor" several times. And he trashed Obama's policies on the environment and the economy, all the while endorsing him heavily.

Roubini seems an honest technician who is trying to advocate for the people on the bottom, as he sees this as the way to at least stop the elite from killing the golden goose (us). Personally, my goose is feeling pretty cooked.
October 20, 2008 | url

manitor said:

1796
What's going to be most sickening
--even more sickening than the corporate media's expected fawning--will be watching the Obama cultists gobble up extra servings of neocon gruel.

The American left is indeed as hypocritical and illogical as Rush Limbaugh would accuse.
October 20, 2008 | url

FiddlerJones said:

1663
...
Actually, I spent my lunch break today listening to a younger colleague wax euphorically about the "unparallelled political genius" of Barrack Obama, who addresses the "in between" issues like abortion rights with an "eloquence unimaginable" etc and so forth. This is the same individual who swallowed Powell's ricin testimony in fron of the U.N. five years ago hook, line and sinker.

pitiful, pitiful, pitiful.
October 20, 2008 | url

mjosef said:

0
Guardian=Left?
Great points, and then the Guardian, which I am given to understand is the voice of what, maybe, the English left - no, not really? - states that Powell is a "man of enduring moral authority"? On what planet, on what basis, can we even proceed when a voice from the outside, putatively the left, makes such an astonishingly awful spillage of balderdash? In the US, the Nation, once putatively the left, issues a review of Thomas Frank's The Wrecking Crew by a neo-liberal academic who waxes forth praise for the Reagan administration. Can we retire this notion of "the Left" once and for all? Without power, without command, there is no turn towards any inclination that a directional signal such as "left" might substantiate.
October 21, 2008

laurie said:

0
...
This post brought tears to my eyes. I can not believe what my party -- the Democratic Party, the supposed anti-war party -- has become and what toxic dreck it deems just fine to swallow in the name of politics as usual. I wish everyone in this country would read this.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for your amazing voice for truth.
October 21, 2008 | url

Debbie said:

960
...
The 'elites' of our world have moved so far to the right, politically and culturally, it is frightening. Then you have the so called progressives, who appear to just want to win, at any cost, even of principles; which I thought was a right wing disease. How wrong I was. It is all so terribly sad. Makes me think of a quote (as I remember)- 'there is none so blind who will not see'.
October 21, 2008

mercury said:

0
Obama Was Against The War
which is a big part of the reason he ever rose to prominence. Perhaps Powell actually has him bamboozled and we're all in for the gates of Hell to open during a worse-than-Bush Obama presidency. Or maybe Powell is being touted as an advisor as a sop to centrists and undecideds for whom that could make a difference.
This is politics, after all.
October 21, 2008

TIM YES IT IS TIM said:

1825
I have a Problem
I have a problem with liars calling others liars.Your lies are just as miscalculated as the ones you accuse.And I have to add with a mentally sick venom.You're at it in the first paragraph of which you state the invasion was a crime according to Nuremburg.Apparently if it were to be assumed this is correct then the Nuremburg Works are of no meaning or the fellow participants are of no use to uphold these works.But the truth lies in the fact Iraq was in violation of another works very similiar,of which you underscore and prevail with a 1945 act with more importance. What IS a fact is there would have been no inspectors if there was no proof those weapons did not exist in the first place.I hope you re-read that and get the meaning of it.The inspectors job was not done? On the contrary,their job was done and they did not find any weapons of mass destruction after many years of which Saddam had agreed to surrender in 1991.You misunderstand the meaning of finding no weapons by the inspectors and this is where you turn your misunderstanding into the blaming of a lie.And You apparently like to discriminate in which treaty you would like to uphold as this one makes Nuremburg irrevelent.I am writing this to tell you please refrain your ignorance from spreading with your public display of it. Now One Million Dead is the biggest exaggeration I've read yet.You deserve some kind of imagination award and please include some link to this verification.I'm sorry but I don't have the time to go on examining your hate spew,even as entertaining as it is.. Oh but I must tell you I agree with your views on Obama and the media's distortion of Iran's statements.Thank you..tim...yes...tim
October 21, 2008

Outsider said:

0
An outsider's view
Not being American, I just thought I'd throw a little thought into the debate. Obama is perceived as representing "the Left" in the US. By European standards he is centre right. Admittedly, this is left of the Republican's far right stance. But still there is only so much one can expect of him. Claims that he is a communist - or even a socialist - raise a smile outside the US.

Concerning Powell, most European countries strongly resented Bush trying to bully them into invading Iraq. Powell was a part of this, as he was doing most of the face-to-face talks. However, he does have enormous respect as a statesman. Remember, he was dealing with professional politicians. Aside from actual issues, these people have to get on with each other and occasionally bring agreements home in their briefcases. I have no doubt that Powell on Obama's side would be welcomed outside the US. If he picks up the phone, he can reach anyone he wants in Europe. Compare this to Ms Palin (or indeed Joe Biden).

I have been saying for months that Powell was the Republican's strongest possible candidate. So it's interesting to see him make this late appearance in the race.
October 21, 2008 | url

gandhi said:

0
...
'I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.'

Thomas Jefferson 1802.
October 21, 2008 | url

RyanHartman said:

1438
Not surprised
I'm so sick of all the Obama supporters saying that he is just doing what he is doing and saying what he is saying in order to get elected. I don't know if this is true or not, but him being a deceiving liar does not make me feel too much better than him being a war criminal.
October 21, 2008 | url

lordmisterford said:

1643
Laurie needs an education --
Laurie wrote -- "This post brought tears to my eyes. I can not believe what my party -- the Democratic Party, the supposed anti-war party -- has become and what toxic dreck it deems just fine to swallow in the name of politics as usual. I wish everyone in this country would read this. Thank you, thank you, thank you for your amazing voice for truth."

J. Ford sez -- I don't understand how you and millions of others came to believe that the Democratic Party was anti-war. The question of whether Democrats were pro-war or anti-war was settled -- emphatically settled -- on the blood-soaked, Mace-encrusted, streets of Chicago in 1968. Hint: The good guys lost the fight.

So tell me, Laurie -- and I'm not being snotty or snide because I really want to know -- Whatever gave you to think that the Democrats, as a group, were anti-war?
October 21, 2008 | url

manitor said:

1796
Didn't Woodrow Wilson already settle
the question of whether or not Democrats were anti-war? Or was it James Polk?

By referring to 1968, you sound as naive as you are accusing the other poster of being.

The Democratic Party is one of the oldest, if not the oldest, parties of violent imperialism on the planet. It has been drenched in blood for more than a century. To each new generation, its phony resistance to the unmasked Satan of American Republicanism makes it seem to be a hero, but those with a greater level of perceptive ability eventually figure out the truth, and feel betrayed. You felt betrayed in 1968; laurie felt betrayed later.

But the Democratic Party has been betraying humanity for a lot longer than that.
October 21, 2008 | url

chris said:

64
...
Mr Tim, you seem to be suffering from a category error. I refer to the Nuremberg principles, one of which was that participation in the planning and launching of a war of aggression was an international war crime, punishable by death. As far as I can make out, you seem to be saying something about the UN resolutions on Iraqi disarmament. I confess I cannot quite follow your train of thought on this point, but in any case, neither the UN General Assembly or the Security Council gave its approval for an invasion of Iraq as punishment for its alleged non-compliance on the disarmament resolutions. So even if you are going to split legal hairs over the murder of a million innocent people, your apparent argument that the invasion of Iraq was justified by the UN resolutions is false on its face, and has been repudiated by almost every legal expert around the world.

I have over the years linked to copious documentation of the long-known weakness of the WMD case against Iraq. If you can spare a minute from trying to find some "justification" for the mass murder in Iraq, you might look up references to Gen. Hussein Kamel, the former director of Iraq's Military Industrialization Corporation, in charge of Iraq's weapons programme -- and Saddam's son-in-law -- who defected to Jordan on Aug 7 1995, bringing with him a crateload of documents detailing Iraq's previous WMD programmes -- and the evidence of their destruction, which he himself had overseen. He was extensively debriefed by UN and IAEA inspectors, and the results of these debriefings were turned over to the US and UK governments. Kamel was later lured back to Iraq -- probably by a threat to his family -- where he was then summarily executed. All of his evidence was later confirmed by Bush's own post-war inspection teams, who reported, in no uncertain terms, that there was no evidence that Iraq had possessed WMD or operated any WMD development programs since 1991.

The historical record of undisputed fact is clear on this point, and has been confirmed, as I said, by the Bush Administration's own investigators: Iraq destroyed its entire WMD program in 1991 -- and this destruction was reported to the US and UK, with supporting documents, by the man who carried it out.

What does this mean? It means that from August 1995, the US and UK governments possessed extremely reliable, first-hand, documented evidence that Iraq had no WMD and no WMD programs. Yet for eight years, these governments -- both Democrat and Republican, Tory and Labour -- deliberately repressed this information. It was not reported to the public until it was leaked by Newsweek less than one month before the invasion in 2003.

Since you are apparently too lazy to look up anything on your own, you can find all this and much more at this site, which was compiled by Dr Glen Rangwala of Cambridge University:

http://middleeastreference.org.uk/kamel.html

So let's recap, shall we? The US and UK governments had solid evidence of Iraq's compliance with UN resolutions on disarmament; they had almost no evidence to contrary, except for lies, fabrications, exaggerations and manipulations of unreliable assertions. And in March 2003, the United States government launched a war of aggression against another state without any provocation, and with no sanction for military action from the UN.

If you want to spin these indisputable historical facts into kind of exoneration for mass murder, be my guest. But it seems a particularly pointless, ignorant and dishonorable thing to do, in my opinion.
October 21, 2008

The Reality Kid said:

0
...
I do wish that we could retrieve, from the memory hole, the quintessential fact that, in compliance with UN Security Council Resolution 1441, Iraq had "disarmed" and, further, despite the difficulty of proving a negative, established that it had disarmed by its comprehensive (approx. 1,500 pages) filing in December, 2002.

It is this, coupled with Bush's ordering out of the UN Inspectors, that ices the war crimes cake.
October 21, 2008

TIM YES IT IS TIM said:

1825
...
First to Reality Kid and Chris,the fact that there were inspectors there to kick out in the first places should tell you that Iraq had not disarmed according to the cease fire agreement Resolution 687 in 1991.AS I SAID BEFORE.Violation was since 1991.If you wish to continue to keep arguing this cease fire agreement has NO F*CKING MEANING to you I could give a f*ck about your opinions.And since I'm on this rant F*ck Saddam
October 21, 2008

manitor said:

1796
So, if
the police showed up at your house to see if you had committed a crime, it is proof that you are guilty?
October 21, 2008 | url

TIM YES IT IS TIM said:

1825
...
Ok to take your comparision seriously I offer another..If the police had a video of me commiting a crime(as to compare the U.S. Govt sold Saddam the W.M.D.s)That is proof and youre welcome to ask a legal expert.And I'm sorry a Hussein family member's statement is not proof of destruction of WMDs.Does this make any bit of sense? If not well this conversation is lost anyway..Now look,I don't mind anyone being against the War and I myself believe it is by far time to get out of Iraq.BUT I have a problem with people Lying about the legality of it.And this exact Lie is by far the largest that exists in this world today and further promotes the ignorance of our society.I'm sorry I lose patience but I take it very seriously to mislead history and believe it's very important history should remain factual.Do you all really think that IF the invasion was Illegal it would not have been stopped at the time? Do you really think a crowd of legal experts did not analyze the situation for a YEAR leading to the invasion? Friends no matter how you feel about the War you should not be misleading others.The War has had some extremely horrible moments and let us know the truth about the causes of it tho my apologies to Chris for warping his opinion into it on his own website.I Initially came here looking for information on the distortion of Iran's statements only to find Distorted statements of another.I personally feel they are of equal damage to our society at this moment.
October 21, 2008

littlehorn said:

1699
1
First to Reality Kid and Chris,the fact that there were inspectors there to kick out in the first places should tell you that Iraq had not disarmed according to the cease fire agreement Resolution 687 in 1991.


So, if the police showed up at your house to see if you had committed a crime, it is proof that you are guilty?

Ah ah. Nice. That was a very weak argument.
October 21, 2008 | url

TIM YES IT IS TIM said:

1825
...
I now see my posts are being removed therefore it is senseless I waste my time trying to service illogical minds.Good luck with your non facts and if you amount of a pile of craps worth of difference politically in this world I would be surprised anyway.
October 21, 2008

Elizabethrose said:

0
...
'Mr Tim, you seem to be suffering from a category error. I refer to the Nuremberg principles, one of which was that participation in the planning and launching of a war of aggression was an international war crime, punishable by death.'
So when are the Americans going to implement this principle and indict the Democrat Bill Clinton, Madeleine Albright and their noxious war criminal colleagues for the doubly illegal (both UN and NATO) attack on Yugoslavia. Bombing for 78 days and nights, murdering its people and as 'Butcher' Clark proudly boasted -bombing it back to the stoneage. Clark is a democrat too.
Look behind Obama and you won't like what you see. Promises to attack Iran? Certainly a hardline, if not worse, position re Russia. The Grand Chessboard - or strategy to steal the resources of central Asia.
Remember you folk have the vote. The rest of the planet have to live with the result.
For God sakes see sense and elect Ralph Nader - or would a little sanity from the American crazies we watch nightly be too much to expect.
October 21, 2008

Mister Jimmy said:

0
...
If Europeans see this liar and stooge as a 'statesman,' it only shows how propagandized they are. This fellow was one of the higher-ups at My Lai and he has kept his bloody hands busy since. Those disgusting lies he spun at the UN to rev up support for the Iraq war permanently pulled the mask from his face. He will be a willing stooge for Ziggy Breshinski when Ziggy--ooops, I mean Obama--gets to the White House.
October 21, 2008

manitor said:

1796
...
Tim, the invasion was illegal under the Nuremberg regime. For something to be called "illegal" there has to be a corresponding legal regime. In this case, the Nuremberg regime condemns aggressive war. There are no exceptions made for "weapons of mass destruction."

You may be confusing the point with current U.N. politics about what is "legal." If the U.N.'s language could somehow be construed to make the invasion of Iraq acceptable, it might mean that it was a legal invasion under the current U.N. However, that would be comparable to saying that Bush became president legally.

We should resist the temptation to condemn things based on "legal" or "illegal." Let's stick with right and wrong. When we argue about whether the invasion was legal, we are a step removed from morality, which is the strongest argument--and the farther we go away from morals, the more wiggle room there is for obfuscation about how to interpret "extreme duress" and what an "executive order" can do, etc.
October 21, 2008 | url

Draco said:

0
No Such Thing As An Illegal War
So-called international law means nothing. Man is a bloodthirsty savage brute, and might makes right. It has been that way since the beginning of time, and it will remain so until the end of the age.
October 21, 2008

blue ox babe said:

0
...
First his arguments are dissected and shown to be fallacious. Then he comes back with fuming ad hominems and marble-mouthed cursing. And in his third post he accuses someone of deleting his posts.

Methinks "TIM yes TIM" needs to focus on the facts and reasoning of his own arguments, and not on unsupported allegations of redaction or censorship.
October 21, 2008

manitor said:

1796
Draco, man is not naturally savage.
If he becomes savage through conditioning, that does not prove that he can ever be otherwise.

Similarly, even if man is indeed inherently savage--which is not true--that does not mean he cannot be otherwise.

Your attitude of original sin is a terrible burden to place upon children, and tries to steal our hope for the future.
October 21, 2008 | url

manitor said:

1796
blue ox babe
I warn you that you may be following traditional rationalizations for censorship. In this case, the censorship of Tim is not deletion or expungement (at least, it does not appear to be), but the system whereby comments can be voted into a marginal slot is sort of like putting protesters in a razorwire "free speech zone" where no one needs to pay much attention to them.

Tim seems to have a point, even if he is disagreeing with Chris or with the rest of us. His point appears to be that the invasion of Iraq was not "illegal." Whether or not he is right, that is a contention that can be debated with.

This should be a breath of fresh air to us. Haven't we just spent the last 8 years watching freepers and pundits cut the mike and refuse to debate? Now, here we have Tim who seems to be willing to make a point (be it erroneous or not), and come back and converse about it.

Questioning whether or not the invasion was "legal" brings up a lot of interesting issues. For example:

1) If the U.N. tacitly approves of the U.S. invasion in contravention of the Nuremberg convention, does that make the invasion legal?

or,

2) Does it make the U.N.'s act of approval an illegal act, as well as the invasion?

We might also ask,

3) By refusing to follow the mandate of its followers and prevent aggressive war, has the U.N. become not only irrelevant, but complicit in the great crimes of our time?

Tim's point helps bring this to light. We all enjoy calling the invasion "illegal," but the U.N. hasn't done a goddamned thing about it. Has it imposed economic sanctions against the U.S.? Has the U.N. tried to arrest members of U.S. administrations?

No. The U.N. has done none of those things. In that light, I think it is perfectly legitimate to make the claim that the invasion might be "legal" under the current U.N.--just as, if a copyright holder fails to enforce its copyright interest against a malicious user, it can legally lose that interest after some period of time.

Telling ourselves the invasion was "illegal" is sort of a comfort blanket--as though any strong organization exists anywhere that is going to enforce this "legality" and stand up to the U.S. military machine.
October 21, 2008 | url

blue ox babe said:

0
...
manitor,

I have no interest whatever in censoring "TIM yes TIM". My suggestion is that he's not making his own points very well, and if he wants to persuade me he's going to need to return to his first post, and Chris's response to it.

Going into a fuming rage doesn't address Chris's response.

Accusing Chris of deleting posts doesn't address Chris's response.

Either I misunderstand what you're trying to say, or you misunderstood me. I'm not sure which is the case.
October 21, 2008

chris said:

64
...
Nobody is being "censored" on this site. There was a mechanism to allow commenters to "vote" on another comment, but I've disabled it because it's causing too much needless commotion.

I agree that the invasion and rape of Iraq would be a monstrous and evil deed even if it had been sanctioned by the UN or any other framework of legality. The point, however, is that even by the legal standards that the American government purports to accept and live by, it is an egregiously unlawful act. It is a crime from every possible angle. And I don't think that anyone except a few "dead-enders" -- and the entire bipartisan foreign policy establishment, of course -- seriously contends otherwise.
October 21, 2008

michael coyote said:

1770
Remember this?
"By the way, I would reach out to the first George Bush. You know, one of the things that I think George H.W. Bush doesn't get enough credit for was his foreign policy team and the way that he helped negotiate the end of the Cold War and prosecuted the Gulf War. That cost us 20 billion dollars. That's all it cost. It was extremely successful. I think there were a lot of very wise people. So I want a bipartisan team that can help to provide me good advice and counsel when I'm president of the United States."

- Barack Obama on LARRY KING LIVE: March 20, 2008

There it is.

Obama lauding the way GHW Bush "prosecuted" the Iraq War. Incredible huh? Not really.

"Iraqi army massed on the Saudi border" when we had a treaty to protect the Saudis. Only, many years later, declassified satellite pics show nothing but endless miles of empty desert on the border. Saddam stopped in Kuwait and never for a minute threatened the Sauds.

In the war itself, the massed column of the defeated Iraqi army was retreating toward Bagdhad. We bombed and napalmed the essentially undefended column to charred wreckage. 100-200 thousand died on that road, apparently.

After the war we incited the Shiites to rebel, then looked the other way as Saddam ruthlessly reestablished "proceeded to victory" in the brief civil war.

If anyone doesn't like these examples, there are sufficient others to prosecute GHWB, if such things were ever done anymore.

Maybe Obama can keep Dick Cheney on board the bi-partisan team as Cheney was Sec. of Defense during those heady days of Desert Storm.

Oh wait and by the way Obama is praising a war criminal.

Can't wait to hear the rationalizations not that substance is of import to the Obama fan club but hey it's election time in The Empire kids, get on board the crazy train.
October 22, 2008 | url

michael coyote said:

1770
Here's the laundry list
If you do not know you have no right to vote nor claim your vote has meaning.

If you do know you'll understand something else, something more, is being asked of you even if you are too cowardly to act in any manner beyond the behind the curtains lever-pulling illusion of your political participation.

And to think this is the best of the 'lesser evilism' advisory board.

What now good citizen?

Top advisers to Obama

Former Amb. Jeffrey Bader, President Clinton’s National Security Council Asia specialist and now head of Brookings’s China center, national security adviser

Mark Brzezinski, President Clinton’s National Security Council Southeast Europe specialist and now a partner at law firm McGuireWoods, national security adviser

Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Carter’s national security adviser and now a Center for Strategic and International Studies counselor and trustee and frequent guest on PBS’s NewsHour with Jim Lehrer, foreign policy adviser

Richard A. Clarke, President Clinton and President George W. Bush’s counterterrorism czar and now head of Good Harbor Consulting and an ABC News contributor, sometimes Obama adviser

Gregory B. Craig, State Department director of policy planning under President Clinton and now a partner at law firm Williams & Connolly, foreign policy adviser

Roger W. Cressey, former National Security Council counterterrorism staffer and now Good Harbor Consulting president and NBC News consultant, has advised Obama but says not exclusive

Ivo H. Daalder, National Security Council director for European affairs during President Clinton’s administration and now a Brookings senior fellow, foreign policy adviser

Richard Danzig, President Clinton’s Navy secretary and now a Center for Strategic and International Analysis fellow, national security adviser

Philip H. Gordon, President Clinton’s National Security Council staffer for Europe and now a Brookings senior fellow, national security adviser

Maj. Gen. J. (Jonathan) Scott Gration, a 32-year Air Force veteran and now CEO of Africa anti-poverty effort Millennium Villages, national security adviser and surrogate

Lawrence J. Korb, assistant secretary of defense from 1981-1985 and now a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress, informal foreign policy adviser

W. Anthony Lake, President Clinton’s national security adviser and now a professor at Georgetown’s school of foreign service, foreign policy adviser

James M. Ludes, former defense and foreign policy adviser to Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., and now executive director of the American Security Project, national security adviser

Robert Malley, President Clinton’s Middle East envoy and now International Crisis Group’s Middle East and North Africa program director, national security adviser

Gen. Merrill A. ("Tony") McPeak, former Air Force chief of staff and now a business consultant, national security adviser

Denis McDonough, Center for American Progress senior fellow and former policy adviser to then-Senate Democratic Leader Tom Daschle, foreign policy coordinator

Samantha Power, Harvard-based human rights scholar and Pulitzer Prize winning writer, foreign policy adviser

Susan E. Rice, President Clinton’s Africa specialist at the State Department and National Security Council and now a Brookings senior fellow, foreign policy adviser

Bruce O. Riedel, former CIA officer and National Security Council staffer for Near East and Asian affairs and now a Brookings senior fellow, national security adviser

Dennis B. Ross, President Clinton’s Middle East negotiator and now a Washington Institute for Near East Policy fellow, Middle East adviser

Sarah Sewall, deputy assistant secretary of defense for peacekeeping and humanitarian assistance during President Clinton’s administration and now director of Harvard’s Carr Center for Human Rights Policy, national security adviser

Daniel B. Shapiro, National Security Council director for legislative affairs during President Clinton’s administration and now a lobbyist with Timmons & Company, Middle East adviser

Mona Sutphen, former aide to President Clinton’s National Security adviser Samuel R. Berger and to United Nations ambassador Bill Richardson and now managing director of business consultancy Stonebridge, national security adviser
October 22, 2008 | url

Grandma Jefferson said:

1286
...
As we all drink the Kool-Aid of the new improved NeoCon "compassionate conservative", happily re-packaged as a "Democrat", poised to expand the warcrime and the Empire, enabled by a joyous new Dim majority, the heavenly memory span of the 'Merkin people, famous for being approximately that of goldfish (3 seconds)rescues this genocidist and warcriminal from his lifetime of lying and murdering for his owners, yet again.

And the idiots here, seeing the same crew of greedy warcriminals lined up with him, dream of hope and change, prosperity, and peace on earth.

I have years since abandoned all hope of this delusional, neanderthal, brainwashed, cretinous country, this murderous juggernaut and mortal enemy of the human race. Now, I live for the collapse, and only hope it comes in time to prevent our launching nukular WWIII. This horrific carnival of an election cycle shows our manifest incompetence as a nation, as a people, to rule anything, including ourselves.

But that's the death throes of empire.
October 22, 2008

Gemini cricket said:

0
...
I know I'm going way back in the list but I'm just reading it now. In response to Mercury's comment: "This is politics after all." No it is not politics at all. It is elitist maneuvering at court. Politics stems from citizen and relates to the people. There is hardly any politics in the US anymore and this most certainly isn't a case of it either.
October 22, 2008

lordmisterford said:

1643
Manitor asks J. Ford --
"Didn't Woodrow Wilson already settle the question of whether or not Democrats were anti-war? Or was it James Polk? By referring to 1968, you sound as naive as you are accusing the other poster of being."

J. Ford sez -- Nah! I know all about Woodrow Wilson. I cited 1968 because that was the last time the question, "Are Democrats pro-war or anti-war?" was argued in public.

As far as Wilson goes -- If we really wanted to start a fight, we could throw in the fact that the women's rights movement has no anti-war credentials. Carrie Chapman Catt handed those to President Woodrow Wilson when she agreed to help him sell World War I to the American people in exchange for his endorsement of the Nineteenth Amendment. But I don't really want to wake that dog up.
October 22, 2008 | url

manitor said:

1796
more blue ox babe/chris
blue ox: my point on censorship was that the "voting" function whereby someone's comments can be marginalized is a form of censorship. I think Tim didn't understand that his comment was still there, but was now behind a link because of the voting function. And I think it was a good idea to disable that function. Allowing popular opinion to marginalize a viewpoint is a bad idea.

Because we are advocating decency and rightness, openness is our ally. We have no need to hide anything, because we have the evidence and truth with us. Leave the state secrets to the Obamas and Bushes of the world, for they are the ones who have the need to conceal.

Chris, I disagree with you on the legality issue, because I have found American law to be hypocritical since the beginning. If you read the cases where the early Supreme Court violated the Constitution and determined that the various native tribes could not have legal title to their land, all the way up to Bush v. Gore or any of the new terrorism cases (those that make it into the light of day) you will see an unmistakable pattern in America law: namely, that the judge(s) in any given case can do whatever he wants as long as he is a powerful enough judge.

While it makes America hypocritical, mendacious and disgusting to invade Iraq, I don't think you can say that it was an illegal act within the context of American law. American law is whatever American judges decide it is at any given moment in time--if there was once some standard of pure American law, it was long ago raped, discarded, decomposed, and then used to fertilize the killing fields.

Similarly, the U.N. has failed to enforce its mandate. If it had been enforcing the Nuremberg principles since its inception, it would have stopped quite a number of wars and interventions (or at least tried to in a meaningful way). Is it fair for us now to appeal to "international law" under a U.N. framework in condemning the U.S.?

Maybe it is. Maybe the U.N. has done enough, or been around a short enough time, that it still has some status to be referred to.

But then, why weren't there weapons inspectors in the U.S.? The U.N. has certainly seen the receipts of Reagan's arms sales to Iraq. They would have started searching at the source if they were legitimate.

"I don't think that anyone except a few "dead-enders" -- and the entire bipartisan foreign policy establishment, of course -- seriously contends otherwise."

That's just the problem. The entire bipartisan foreign policy establishment is the one who decides what's legal, and exerts huge influence in the U.N.

I suggest we avoid arguing over whether something was "legal" or not, and stick with moral. Legal is too easily co-opted by minutiae. It's sort of like arguing over Plato's "Forms" rather than about the real world.
October 22, 2008 | url

mistah charley, ph.d. said:

0
...

Powell, although indisuptably a war criminal, should NOT be executed, in my opinion. I think governments should kill people only when necessary. In some hypothetical future which I may possibly live to see (although I am not so young, my father is 34 years older than I and still alive), after Gen. Powell's fair trial for mass murder, he should NOT be hung or shot or electrocuted or poisoned or suffocated or strangled or thrown to a pack of ravenous dogs or dropped from an airplane into the ocean, but imprisoned for life. With nutritious food. And medical care.
October 22, 2008 | url

blue ox babe said:

0
...
manitor,

1) I still don't understand why you mentioned me and censorship in the same post. I want nothing to do with censorship, and I don't like being affiliated with the notion. I didn't mention anything about the up/down voting on posts. I still think you are making flawed references to me and/or my posts when you cite to me and discuss censorship.

2) The argument on "legality" wasn't Chris's, but TIM's. You've accepted TIM's categorization of how Chris mentioned "legality." That seems a bit unfair.

3) Your discussion of what is "legal" in America is irrelevant to the factual point of international law being broken. But you do make a good case for the loss of integrity in American jurisprudence. If we want to cast blame on that point, we need to go back to the Constitution and its deviation from the Articles of Confederation, and the resultant history of Federal Courts and their pronouncements regarding the acts of the Congress and the Executive. But frankly, I see your arguments on "legality" as being a distraction that serves little (if any) purpose here. As I read Chris's essay, it's not premised on the sole point of legality. It's really premised on the duplicity of Colin Powell. When you stray from that analysis, you are basically suggesting that Chris's essay is wrong, or that Colin Powell isn't what Chris has laid out.
October 22, 2008

manitor said:

1796
...
Please forgive me, BOB. I was under the impression that you were aware of the fact that posts were being minimized when they were "voted down," and that your first post about Tim was dismissing his concerns over his words disappearing. I see now that you didn't know what was happening, and that you dismissed his allegations because of that.

I am keenly conscious of when any group begins acting in a way designed to minimize disagreement. Whatever the rationalization--obscenity, clutter, off the point, code of standards, heresy--censorship harms the organic process of communication, like a dam on the river, and damages the learning and growth of all. The vote feature looks to be gone, so hurray. I'm sure it wasn't ill-meant in the first place; it's just one of those internet quirks that can have good and bad consequences. It's too bad Tim wasn't a little more patient or savvy, as we might then have had a rewarding discussion.

Yes, he was ignorant, but this is the alternative media--almost everyone coming to the alternative media for the first time is going to be ignorant. Tim might have been 15 and raised on Fox News by abusive parents. He might have been 32 and known only U.S. mainstream education, and lived such an affluent middle-class life that he never found out the things we all understand. This isn't to exonerate him for his ignorance, but to suggest that we understand how it could happen, and undertake to help him out of the mire.

As to legality: Tim brought up the legal point, and Chris countered him. I find it both relevant, and an interesting tangent, to question the "legality" of the invasion, and draw conclusions therefrom (in this case, my own was that it isn't fruitful to discuss "legality" very much at all).
October 22, 2008 | url

Lenore said:

0
Obama's new advisor
You are worried about nothing and the reason I think so is because I have observed and supported Barack since the beginning of the primaries. If you watch the speeches over the past almost 2 years, and read some of his book "The audacity of hope", you will see that his is such an extraordinary intelligence that what he wants and needs is to be surrounded by highly intelligent people, and he doesn't want them to all agree with him. He wants people who disagree to tell him frankly alternate ways of viewing things. He is fully capable of avoiding any "kool aid" sold by any interest group. His priorities (policy wise) are based on his basic values.

He is also expert at listening to people of differing opinions and making them really feel "heard", and also negotiation (NYT article on Barack at Harvard Law Review). But that is another topic.

Please don't worry. Barack knows what he's doing, and Colin Powell is an additional "legitimizer" for Barack. It will help him get elected (a good thing). He can utilize consultations with Powell as little or as much as he wants to when he is president. It might not be so much.

What we need to concentrate on now, this moment, is what we can do to help Barack get elected whather it be a donation, volunteer on his website, or get out the vote organizing.

Wish us all luck!


October 23, 2008 | url

el grillo said:

0
...
Lenore, "Barack knows what he's doing" all right(grasping for power and for self-aggrandizement), and that is all the more reason to "worry".
As for Powell "legitimizing" Obama, the end does not justify the means, even if the end were legitimate (which in this case it is not).
October 23, 2008

blue ox babe said:

0
...
manitor,

My point on legality rests mainly on the idea that if you take a deconstructionist approach to the concept of legality, then you are trying to convince people that there is no such thing as law. To me that distracts from the point of whether Colin Powell is a hypocritical toady. If law is what the Executive says it is, then nobody can do wrong. Then we must ask, what is right/wrong, and where does law fit in. I wonder if an examination of American jurisprudence is fruitful here. It's surely not my blog, and therefore this is only my thought with absolutely no ownership rights here, but I think that comments ought to stay close to what Chris's essay is about. I am not suggesting external censorship. I am suggesting self-censorship by those who post comments, to try to keep the discussion relevant. That's just what makes it interesting to me.

I would happily discuss American jurisprudence in the appropriate setting. I just don't think a deconstructionist examination is very relevant to the question of Colin Powell's track record and what it means for Powell to endorse Obama.
October 23, 2008

hv said:

0
...
Lenore,

that was a hilarious satire of an Obama-bot! I mean, you hit all the right notes there: the shameless propagandizing for Obama, the excuse-making to sweep away Obama's unapologetic admiration for smarter and more efficent American imperialists and mass-murderers like George H. W. Bush and Ronald Reagan, and last but not least, the earnest stupidity and Messiah-worship that characterizes the entire Obama movement!

Oh wait.. that was satire, right? Don't tell me you really mean that bunch of horseshit?
October 23, 2008

Donald L. Smith said:

0
...
hv-
"vote up".
October 23, 2008

AlanSmithee said:

0
...
Oh wait.. that was satire, right?

Of course it was. It's not humanly possible for someone to be that batshit insane and still be socially functional.

Probably.
October 23, 2008 | url

mistah charley, ph.d. said:

0
obama - sincere War Party member, or lying peacenik?
Like commenter Lenore, above, my spouse missus charley, m.d. hopes that Obama will reduce U.S.-sponsored mass murder in the world. Part idealist, part cynic, my wife makes the argument that Obama is dedicated to gaining power by any means necessary. Clearly, the road to the White House is barred to anyone who does not welcome the embrace of the MICFiC (military industrial congressional financial corporate media complex). Let us reduce our occupation force in Iraq, says Barack - so we can put more boots on the ground with guns in their hands pointed at the inhabitants of Afghanistan.

But although Obama says things like this with apparent sincerity (and in politics, as in life in general, when you can fake sincerity you've got it made), it's not what he really means to do, goes the argument. Instead, he is really a Christian - not a Christianist, like Gov. Palin, but someone who tries to live according to the teachings of Jesus. You have heard Matthew 10:16, though you may not be able to call up the quote from the citation. "Be as harmless as doves, but as sneaky as snakes" is my own paraphrase - the King James Version, which some believe is what Jesus would have said, if English had been invented at the time, puts it "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."

It may be that Barack is a sheep (or a Shepherd) in wolves' clothing (to invert another of Jesus's sayings).
October 23, 2008 | url

mistah charley, ph.d. said:

0
Law - and a verse after Lewis Carroll, "He thought he saw..."
Mr. Floyd ends his posting with a quote from George Orwell, and the discussion of Law in the comments section reminded me of this, from Orwell's 1942 review of T.S. Eliot's A Choice of Kipling's Verse:

No one, in our time, believes in any sanction greater than military power; no one believes that it is possible to overcome force except by greater force. There is no "Law," there is only power. I am not saying that that is a true belief, merely that it is the belief which all modern men do actually hold. Those who pretend otherwise are either intellectual cowards, or power-worshippers under a thin disguise, or have simply not caught up with the age they are living in.


And speaking of English writers with Victorian sensibilities (Kipling, not Orwell) - Lewis Carroll's Sylvie and Bruno is little read these days, and deservedly so, except for the verses of the Mad Gardener's Song. Here is my homage, in its most recent revision -


She thought she saw a candidate
Who'd put an end to War.
She looked again, and found it was
The Same Game as Before.
"If that's the way it goes," she said,
"Then what is voting for?"
October 23, 2008 | url

blue ox babe said:

0
...
hv and alan smithee -- ahhhh, yes. thanks. Lenore does seem a bit detached from reality, maybe thinking she's at Daily Kos and not Empire Burlesque?
October 23, 2008

blue ox babe said:

0
...
It may be that Barack is a sheep (or a Shepherd) in wolves' clothing (to invert another of Jesus's sayings).


Oh sure. And it may be that Barack Obama is not. I don't care about "may be," frankly. I care about what the facts show.

And what the facts** indicate is that Barack Obama is 100% wolf, and he's not even good at the sheep-suit wearing.


**Facts such as his voting record in the Senate, his advisory team, and his funding sources.
October 23, 2008

littlehorn said:

1699
Censorship is evil
It's surely not my blog, and therefore this is only my thought with absolutely no ownership rights here, but I think that comments ought to stay close to what Chris's essay is about. I am not suggesting external censorship. I am suggesting self-censorship by those who post comments, to try to keep the discussion relevant.

Same here, it's not my blog. Now that this is said, let's continue:
Whether external or integrated, censorship is wrong. I would say it is much worse when it is integrated. The way to acquire the truth is through considering all the facts, and through never holding onto any particular belief. Any self-censorship of any kind and any degree is extremely dangerous. Do not ever ask anyone to censor himself, to refrain himself from speaking his mind, whatever the reason. Nothing is more important than to consider anything and everything worth being spoken aloud, written down, or offered as a comment.

Freedom of speech is directly linked to freedom of thinking. You can't reject the first without the second. Already many call conspirationists 'dangerous lunatics', even though none of them threatened anyone with anything. We are slowly including thought crimes to what is intolerable.

In the face of all these terrible things, a few off-topic comments, or even a discussion that goes off-topic, seem like a very low price to pay.
October 23, 2008 | url

manitor said:

1796
Yes, and...
Who decides what is off topic?

Imagination and free expression will lead us to answers to problems that we cannot now imagine. If we demand that we stay "on topic," we will remain within predefined boundaries of what is "on topic."

That will create the echo chamber effect that Chris laments so often. The corporate media already knows what the approved topics are, so all it can do is rehash the same old "on topic" questions and answers.
October 23, 2008 | url

manitor said:

1796
Essay on censorship
(Follow the url in this post to my censorship essay.)
October 23, 2008 | url

Kelso's Nuts said:

0
Editorial's From Hell's Leading Daily Newspaper
Chris: Your blog was recommended to me by someone at Hullaballoo (could well have been AlanSmithee) when I tried to make the same case about Powell that you did. It cuts kind of close to the bone for me because I'm panameno and what Powell did here was worse than 3x 9/11/01. It was only for sadism and grins because all he was asked to do was to bring General Noriega to Florida to face white collar federal charges.

In the process, however, he killed over 5000 civilians, rendered 100,000 homeless, and ran a crazy psyops thing in the city which involved rape, bullying, defacing churches, synagogues and mosques. And basically having his troops run amok in the Capital. It got so bad, Bush Senior himself had to tell Powell to cut the shit.

This is the person Colin Powell has always been and will ever be. I'm very glad to be panameno because although Obama is preferable to McCain, my president Martin Torrijos is way better than both as a progressive and as an economic manager. And we don't have all the crazy punishment that you have, nor do we have the Orwellian surveillance state. Privacy is taken very seriously here. As is discrimination.

But very few Americans will hear me on this. They seem to feel Powell is some kind of American Royalty instead of the sadistic, lying, egotistical coward he is.

Vete al carajo Colin Powell gringo hijoputa de mierda!
October 23, 2008 | url

blue ox babe said:

0
...
Any self-censorship of any kind and any degree is extremely dangerous. Do not ever ask anyone to censor himself, to refrain himself from speaking his mind, whatever the reason.


Manitor, you have descended into absurdist comedy. Think about it. According to the above statement, Chris Floyd should allow his blog comments area to become a font for snuff porn, Jew-baiting bigotry, Klan-like hatred of Black folks, and many other antisocial, misanthropic messages. I'd guess only that you haven't been here when people have tried to wallpaper the comments section with Goebbels-like screeds about how all America's problems are the evil JOOOOOOS.

Relevance is important to all human communication.

And again I'll ask you to stop making parallels between my stated thoughts, and an external censorship agenda. I'm finding it fairly fraudulent on your part, frankly.
October 23, 2008

blue ox babe said:

0
...
ERRATA: apology to manitor, that last post was quoting and discussing littlehorn's post.

littlehorn -- please read that prior reply as a response to your post.
October 23, 2008

woman of the woods said:

1833
...
John Adams said, "Abuse of words has been the great instrument of sophistry and chicanery, of party, faction and division of society. I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy." Thanks for your excellent essay, Chris!
October 24, 2008

MFB said:

0
Hmmmmm
I usually sympathise with opponents of the death penalty, but in the case of General Powell I think military rule should take its course. A firing-squad would be not inappropriate for that august officer, after the proper ceremonies for a dishonourable discharge.

I'm not sure, however, that this resolves our Obama problem. My principal hope is that (unlike the good Mr. IOZ) I believe that Mr. Obama will be even less competent than General Jack D Ripper.
October 24, 2008 | url

littlehorn said:

1699
That's what you don't get
And again I'll ask you to stop making parallels between my stated thoughts, and an external censorship agenda. I'm finding it fairly fraudulent on your part, frankly.

Where the hell did I say anything you said had something to do with an external censorship agenda ? Isn't this sentence clear enough ?
Do not ever ask anyone to censor himself, to refrain himself from speaking his mind, whatever the reason.

You want others to censor themselves, of their own accord, this has nothing to do with external censorship by force. To the contrary, you want people to integrate censorship, you don't force it on them, and that's much much worse.

A lesson imposed is a lesson lost. Therefore, external censorship does not work and in a sense leaves more room for free thinking. But to ask others to censor themselves is a lot more pernicious and a lot more effective. Thinking is really capped then, as opposed to when, for instance, some guys in robes throw you in jail.

According to the above statement, Chris Floyd should allow his blog comments area to become a font for snuff porn, Jew-baiting bigotry, Klan-like hatred of Black folks, and many other antisocial, misanthropic messages. I'd guess only that you haven't been here when people have tried to wallpaper the comments section with Goebbels-like screeds about how all America's problems are the evil JOOOOOOS.

As I said, this is not my website. I'm just some guy. Chris Floyd does what Chris Floyd wants. I'm describing what I do and what I wish you and others did. Yes, Chris Floyd should allow his blog comments to include all kinds of stuff. I sense the fear of freedom in the above words. Are you really saying the only thing that stops the comments section from being flooded is the fact that Mr Floyd keeps an eye on it 24/7 ?

Ask yourself this. What is the real price of having -for instance- racist comments on your website ? What does it show about you ? Nothing. What does it show about the other commenters ? Nothing. It shows something about the authors of these comments. Does it stop us from talking to one another ? No. Does it stop us from reading each other's comments ? No.

And most importantly, do people hurt or die from them ? No. In fact, those comments are absolutely harmless. Except for some of you guys' feelings of course.

So in other words, even though you pretend you are against external censorship, you don't seem to understand why. You don't want censorship on people whose freedom you can accept. Those who remain on-topic, or those you can tolerate. But you will still want the nazis, racists, etc... to be censored. You do not act on principle, but on commodity.

And then people get surprised at how the Bush administration curtailed freedom of speech; as if there was ever freedom of speech to begin with. As soon as the idea of dangerous thoughts was legitimated by most of the population, it was bound to happen that way someday. The free speech zones are no accident. You are dangerous because you do not believe in the safe things. Thinking and speaking has been potentially criminal for a long time. The list of interdictions has just grown to include pacifists, that's all. Your list is different blue ox babe, certainly. But it is still a list and as George Carlin said, rights aren't rights if someone can take them away.
October 24, 2008 | url

littlehorn said:

1699
Error
You do not act on principle, you act on convenience. It was a faux-ami.
October 24, 2008 | url

littlehorn said:

1699
A word to manitor
Thanks for your link. I'll probably leave a comment later. I also wrote up something about censorship there.
October 24, 2008 | url

blue ox babe said:

0
...
littlehorn,

If you want to issue a speech on the ills of Bush/Cheney, have at it!

If you try to tie me to your notions of censorship, I'll pass. As I said -- relevance is crucial. Your "argument" regarding censorship is as useless as laissez-faire capitalism, and is premised on the same naive belief that if you let people do whatever they want, they will always be noble.

Thanks, but I've read Ayn Rand, and I find her repugnant in her childish destructiveness, and I think the same about your implicating me in this ridiculous tirade against censorship.
October 24, 2008

blue ox babe said:

0
...
PS to littlehorn:

Sadly, you cannot relate my position to the "echo chamber" that nobody enjoys -- unless you misunderstand and distort my position.

And you've done a fine job on that misunderstanding and distortion. But thanks for trying to tie me to your scapegoat's tail.
October 24, 2008

littlehorn said:

1699
.
I simply don't think relevance is important. People speak their mind because they want to. So let's not introduce an excuse that would hinder that. Manitor has already been banned for this very weak reason, see his essay.

Also, could you stop mentioning Ayn Rand simply because I place freedom of speech above relevance ? The first and only time I extensively read about her was there:
But what I had said about Rand's methodology two years ago I now view as significantly inaccurate and misleading. It would take me much too far afield and require a great deal of time to explain the changes in my thought in any detail. I hope to return to the "Systems of Obedience" series in a few months, after completing some other writing. And Rand's "philosophy," such as it is, fits perfectly into that series: despite the protestations of her followers and of Rand herself that her philosophy reveres reason and independence above all else, the opposite is true. With regard to how her ideas actually work in the lives and thought of her admirers and, I would submit, the only way those ideas can work, Rand's notions ultimately and inevitably reduce to a demand for obedience to principles that are often defended very poorly or barely at all, that are frequently incoherent and contradictory, and that are extraordinarily damaging, in ways both small and tragically large. In many respects, her ideas are remarkably bad, and often exceedingly dangerous. But another time for all that.

So I was never attracted to her ideas, not one second.
October 24, 2008 | url

littlehorn said:

1699
Just to clear things up
Apparently, blue ox babe is under the impression I'm calling her a censorer. Well, if I left that impression, it was a mistake on my part. She is not. She wants others to refrain from going off-topic, and she'll talk them into doing that. This is not censorship, this is only advocacy. My position is simply that she shouldn't advocate for this. I don't want anyone to refrain from saying anything. And indeed, I do not care that they are Nazis, or the worst, most evil scum of the entire planet.
October 25, 2008 | url

The Big Buddha said:

0
Thank you for your effort, Just found your blog and its great.
Just have to say, I know a whore when I see one and Colon is a whore. He obviously will say and do anything for self preservation. Short memories we all have. I think his endorsement of Barack is meaningless. The media stated they had not see a more presidential sounding figure on television in years when he gave his 7 minute Obama endorsement on Meet the Press- see Chris Matthews Hardball. This guy said yes there were wmds in iraq and gave one of the most pro war speeches in american history at the U.N. ulitmately causing massive blood shed. So, I say, Colin Powell please step back from the candidate and keep your hands in the air, you are under arresst.
October 25, 2008 | url

Sumofighter said:

0
How many human lives these people have murdered?
This man and his top hirers have been responsible for killing millions(?) of Iraqi men, women, children and old people since the invasion of kuwait by Iraq in 1990 and until now. It is a too long period of suffering. Even the world war II ended in about 6 years. Here people are silent now even though we have tremendous technology, better knowledge of what is happening today instantly, and well educated men and women. But all of this is not been able to prevent the mass murder of Iraqi men, women and children for 18 years along and continuing....Can you murder a single person and escape the law? How come these people who waged war against Iraq could escape the electric chair or firing squad after killing unknown number of humans and causing suffering to the remaining millions of Iraqi men, children and women?
If you do not answer correctly and judiciouly, you will cause your own destruction by siding with the treacherous liars and mass murderers...Are you going along with them?
October 29, 2008

Tim Yes Its Tim said:

0
Would you defend Hitler? Apparently so...
You're ignorant of the proceedings of the war since the Invasion of Kuwait.BY SADDAM..I Know you're all mentally sick and like to argue unanswered here as I've attempted to break thru the mental block here.This mental sickness is built on reverse blame hence my title.Its quite dangerous and also the factor that historically has fueled continous wars and revenge.I do find some satisfaction knowing sick people like you who defend Saddam and his atrocities are still mad in every sense of the word.
October 29, 2008

N. Rassmussen said:

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Colin Powell is a war criminal!
Colin Powell is a war criminal.

He was the Joint Chiefs' of staff of the military. As such, one of his responsibilities is to know the war capabilities of ebery country. He should have known that Iraq did not have any weapons of mass destruction. Or, he cound have asked the President Bush to wait for the UN inspection team to finish its job. He did not do any of that at all. Instead, he was more worried about his insider status and launched this country on this disaster and murder,

Powell should be handed over to the international war crimes tribunal. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

January 23, 2009

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Last Updated on Monday, 20 October 2008 22:57